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Traveller-digest    Wednesday, December 22 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 1550<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Benedict Arnold (was: Re: OT), come to think of it, it probably still is.<BR>
Sac'to? (Was Re: SF Trav game)<BR>
Re: [OT] War of 1812<BR>
traditional jump limit thread WAS Re: How much should a starship cost<BR>
Re: Canada<BR>
Rivals of the Third Imperium Webring<BR>
Re: [OT] War of 1812<BR>
OT: FW: moderator: America, as seen by a Canadian<BR>
Re: War of 1812, xFW, nTh IW<BR>
RE: the north american union<BR>
Re: 3I Sports<BR>
Re: Terran polities<BR>
Re: Far Future Terra<BR>
Re: Traveller roadshows<BR>
Re: OT: FW: moderator: America, as seen by a Canadian<BR>
Re: Ethnic confusion<BR>
Re: Far Fututre Terra<BR>
Re: (OT) Mental Health in Australia<BR>
Re: Terra and the US in IY 1110 (was various)<BR>
Re: The origins of Football<BR>
Re:  Racial depictions<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 02:38:20 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Benedict Arnold (was: Re: OT), come to think of it, it probably still is.<BR>
<BR>
<pould@netcom.ca> wrote:<BR>
<snip><BR>
> Later, the americans were defeated before Quebec City (I think they were<BR>
> led by that great Patriot: Benedict Arnold ;-)).<BR>
<snip><BR>
> One question to my US friends, it has to do with Benedict Arnold.  I seem<BR>
> to recall reading somewhere that when the US government issued a stamp<BR>
> using a famous painting on it, they "brushed out" Benedict Arnold, who was<BR>
> in the original painting.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, Benedict Arnold was a *True Patriot*, he was a<BR>
leader who distinguished himself in many ways before<BR>
he had a change of heart.  Colonel Arnold and Ethan<BR>
Allen along with a contingent of the Green Mountain Boys<BR>
captured Fort Ticonderoga May 10, 1775.  The supplies<BR>
that he "liberated"  helped George Washington's<BR>
ill-equipped American forces, who were besieging<BR>
Boston. Later the same year Arnold led a brave but<BR>
unsuccessful assault on British Qubec and was<BR>
promoted to brigadier general; enemy reinforcements<BR>
subsequently forced his retreat to Lake Champlain.<BR>
<BR>
On the lake Arnold was defeated (1776) by a British<BR>
naval attack, but his delaying tactics thwarted an enemy<BR>
drive to New York City, which would have divided the<BR>
colonies. His leadership in the Battle of Ridgefield,<BR>
Connecticut (April 1777), won him a belated promotion<BR>
to the rank of major general. During the crucial Saratoga<BR>
campaigns in New York in the summer and fall of 1777,<BR>
his relief of Fort Stanwix and his courageous and<BR>
imaginative battlefield leadership contributed decisively<BR>
to an American victory.<BR>
<BR>
___________________________________________<BR>
In 1778, after becoming commander of Philadelphia, he<BR>
met Margaret Shippen who he married in 1779.  He<BR>
squandered most of his money on an extravagant social<BR>
life.  His need of money, along with growing resentment<BR>
over real and immagined slights led to the above<BR>
mentioned change of heart.  In 1780 he agreed to<BR>
surrender the fort at West Point (the key to the Hudson<BR>
River valley), of which he was Comandant.<BR>
<BR>
I have never heard of the stamp to which you refer;<BR>
however, I do know that there is a memorial statue to<BR>
Benedict Arnold.  He was promised a memorial before<BR>
he became a turn coat.  I understand that the statue is of<BR>
a (pair of) boot(s).  His name is not on the memorial<BR>
because they didn't promise him that and many didn't<BR>
want to memorialize him at all; however, the leaders were<BR>
as good as thier word and kept it but no more.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
___________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World<BR>
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 02:38:26 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Sac'to? (Was Re: SF Trav game)<BR>
<BR>
Any chance there might be anyone in Sacramento who<BR>
might be interested in an occasional get together?<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
___________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World<BR>
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:19:03 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] War of 1812<BR>
<BR>
At 20:57 -0500 21/12/99, "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au> wrote:<BR>
> >Oaky, I'll start a football one then.<BR>
> >Dom <TIC><BR>
><BR>
>    That's right, the English invented Football . . .<BR>
>. . . the Australians show them how to play it.<BR>
<BR>
Just about anyone can show us how to play it at the moment, kind of <BR>
like cricket :-(<BR>
<BR>
<sigh><BR>
<BR>
Dom (adding to the TMLs traditional seasonal signal to noise deterioration)<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:22:58 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: traditional jump limit thread WAS Re: How much should a starship cost<BR>
<BR>
At 20:57 -0500 21/12/99, "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au> wrote:<BR>
> >There is a 55-ton canonical jump boat.<BR>
><BR>
>Is there any more info on this vessel? I've been thinking about Jump Capable<BR>
>Life Boats.<BR>
<BR>
It's a TNE abberation - aside from the Jump Torpedoes in Leviathan <BR>
(Adv 4),  also hinted at in some issues of Book 2 (see old TML <BR>
digests for reference), no other edition of Traveller allows <BR>
sub-100dt jump capable starships.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:28:52 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Canada<BR>
<BR>
At 23:02 -0500 21/12/99, "David L. Pulver" <dlpulver@kos.net> wrote:<BR>
>We secretly control much of Steve Jackson Games, and through it, the<BR>
>current published incarnation of Traveller.<BR>
><BR>
>Don't forget socialized medicine, less crime/gun control, and the other<BR>
>flamebait issues. As for the War of 1812, it's pretty much our only major<BR>
>military victory, other than (maybe) downing the Red Baron, Juno Beach and<BR>
>liberating Holland.<BR>
 <BR>
Hmm - I'd wondered why there was an unmentioned extra  Illuminati <BR>
card called 'Canada' in the Y2k expansion. Dropping hints? ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom (unserious)<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:34:59 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Rivals of the Third Imperium Webring<BR>
<BR>
At 1:07 -0500 22/12/99, owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com <BR>
(Traveller-diges wrote:<BR>
>Rivals of the Third Imperium Webring (3 sites)<BR>
><BR>
>http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/Traveller/Rivals%20of%20the%20Thir<BR>
>d%20Imperium.htm<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
That URL is screwed. %20 is a space IIRC so has someone uploaded a <BR>
Mac or Windoze file with spaces on a UNIX machine?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:38:43 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] War of 1812<BR>
<BR>
At 1:07 -0500 22/12/99, "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> wrote:<BR>
> >>*We* (the UK) gave them football, which is always played with a<BR>
>round<BR>
> >>ball, 22 men and a referee, in halves.<BR>
> >Eeeeewww... Icky! <g><BR>
>	I agree ... splitting the referee in halves makes a mess all over ...<BR>
<BR>
And I went back and added the comma after referee to try and make it <BR>
parse correctly. <sigh> sometimes I'm just not appreciated!<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:48:11 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: OT: FW: moderator: America, as seen by a Canadian<BR>
<BR>
At 1:07 -0500 22/12/99, "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating<BR>
>over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane.<BR>
>Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing<BR>
>Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas 10?  If so, why don't<BR>
>they fly them?<BR>
<BR>
Not the Jumbo (at the moment) but the Airbus pretty much blows the <BR>
other two away. Except when the USN is blowing it away :-/<BR>
<BR>
>Why do all the International Airlines except Russia fly American planes?<BR>
<BR>
Because the UK manufacturers collapsed out of the international <BR>
market as it transitioned to jets when the DH Comet accidents <BR>
happened, and it took 30 years for a credible alternative to be <BR>
developed (in this case Airbus Industrie). As a result, there are <BR>
really only two major civil passenger aircraft manufacturers now, <BR>
Boeing and Airbus.<BR>
<BR>
Dom (listening to the Christmas jingos)<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 03:20:23 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: War of 1812, xFW, nTh IW<BR>
<BR>
>From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
>Subject: War of 1812, xFW, nTh IW<BR>
...<BR>
>>What makes you think it didn't demonstrate "Staying power"<BR>
...<BR>
>Item: The brittish raided, but did not attempt to take, US Cities.<BR>
<BR>
  re Washington:<BR>
  "In Maryland, Virginia and Pennsylvania there were then living not far <BR>
from 1.5 millions of whites. Yet this great population remained in its <BR>
towns and cities and suffered 5,000 Englishmen to spend five weeks in its<BR>
midst without once attempting to drive the invaders from its soil."<BR>
<BR>
  In any case, it is obviously counter-productive to a strategy of amphibious<BR>
raiding to actually hold indefinitely all but the most vital of objectives,<BR>
unless ones troop strength for such duties is much greater than that available<BR>
to the British in 1812-13.<BR>
<BR>
>Item: The proof that HMRN was, in fact, not the be-all and end-all of seapower<BR>
<BR>
  More accurately, the proof that sea-power was not the be-all and end-all <BR>
of strategy, which a number of agencies have since forgotten.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 11:22:37 +0000<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: RE: the north american union<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>
>>From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>Subject: <BR>
><BR>
>>	In the last century, we have had countries <BR>
>>that were at war with each other become steady <BR>
>>friends.  Why?  Does anyone see the 3I ever<BR>
>>becoming friends with a polity that they had a war <BR>
>>with?<BR>
><BR>
>I am reminded of Tom Lehrer's song about the Multi<BR>
>Lateral Force, which was an idea in the 1960s for the<BR>
>defense of Europe that would have put nuclear weapons<BR>
>under the control of West Germany.  In his<BR>
>introduction to the song, he notes that MLF is touted<BR>
>as a good idea because it is supported by our<BR>
>"traditional allies, the Germans", even though opposed<BR>
>by "our recent allies, the French", which brings<BR>
>considerable laughter from the audience.<BR>
<BR>
"We have no permanent allies, only permanent interests."<BR>
<BR>
Disraeli to Queen Victoria<BR>
<BR>
Personally, I can't see why a country with that policy<BR>
should be saddled with the title "Perfidious Albion"<BR>
<BR>
;-)<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 06:23:18 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: 3I Sports<BR>
<BR>
On 12/22/1999 04:40, Kyle Schuant wrote from Down Under:<BR>
<BR>
> Ob Traveller...IMTU gravball is more akin to handball<BR>
> than anything else,<BR>
> ie non-contact.  I think most folks run it a little<BR>
> differently. What other games are popular in<BR>
> YTU's?Eris<BR>
> <BR>
> IMTU, Gladiators! Where people get together in those<BR>
> power-loader suits (like in Aliens) and battle it out!<BR>
> Yes, manslaughter is decriminalised on the world where<BR>
> this happens... though they're not allowed to mount<BR>
> guns, blasters, any kind of projectile weapon... just<BR>
> swords, axes, clubs, industrial power saws... Brutal,<BR>
> but popular!<BR>
> <BR>
Sounds like ROLLERBALL could also be a popular sport on some Traveller<BR>
lower-tech (and maybe even some higher-tech) worlds, especially those set up<BR>
as corporate worlds. It's been awhile since that movie came out...:) :)<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:27:16 +0100 (MET)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Terran polities<BR>
<BR>
Jon Zeigler writes:<BR>
<BR>
>I'm developing Terra (era 1120 in the G:T timeline) for SJG.  Right now I'm<BR>
>thinking that virtually *none* of the nation-states of the late 20th Century<BR>
>still exist in any significant form in the Third Imperium era.<BR>
<BR>
And William F. Hostman writes:<BR>
<BR>
>>I would figure that the individual nations would continue as entities<BR>
>>under the Terran Confederation. Much like the states did after 1789<BR>
>>under the consitution.<BR>
><BR>
>Doubtful, as in canon, we have several intervening steps. <BR>
<BR>
But the individual nations did continue under the Terran Confederation<BR>
albeit with very little power. See AM6, p. 5.<BR>
<BR>
>By IY 1050, Terra is a captured and occupied world, under the thumb of the<BR>
>Imperial Marines. (See Supp 10.<BR>
><BR>
>The IM are quite likely to create geographic regions for cantonment that<BR>
>are NOT congruent with priot political boundaries; this allows you to blame<BR>
>internal violence upon purges by the "Locals from across the old border".<BR>
>Also, said cantonments are likely also to be set up for the convinience of<BR>
>the IMC, not the redidents.<BR>
<BR>
There is no evidence that they did, though. And evidence that at least one<BR>
old nation-state (Nepal) survived to 1109 -- as a district, not a nation.<BR>
See AM6, pp. 45-48.<BR>
<BR>
When the United Nations became a world government, nations became renamed<BR>
disticts (AM6, p. 46). The District of Nepal remained a constitutional<BR>
monarchy until a referendum in -2030, so clearly the UN, the Terran<BR>
Confederation, and the Rule of Man allowed these former nations wide<BR>
lattitude in internal governing structure.<BR>
  <BR>
>Likewise, the Solomani confederation arises (Like the phoenix) out of the<BR>
>ashes of the Terran Confederation. The 3I had recaptured the terran sphere,<BR>
>including earth, following the long night. <BR>
<BR>
The 3rd Imperium didn't capture Earth. It, and the rest of the Old Earth<BR>
Union, was peacefully absorbed by the 3rd Imperium in 588. No reason to<BR>
suppose that would have been an occasion for internal upheavals.<BR>
<BR>
>More than likely, the "States of Terra" are NorAm, SoAm, NorAf, SoAf, Euro, <BR>
>Slavia, Orient, Oz, and Arabia, <BR>
<BR>
Even if these regions were effectively 'super-governments', they could still<BR>
have good reason to preserve their districts as individual entities. Remember<BR>
the Soviet Union? It had three votes in the UN through a legal fiction that<BR>
made Russia, White Russia and [damn, I forget the third one] independent<BR>
nations.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, there's no evidence that these super-governments exist.<BR>
<BR>
>...at least by the time the Vilani occupation resolves into imperial<BR>
>membership; in the 600's, IIRC, the Solomani Sphere gains internal Autonomy.<BR>
<BR>
In 704, actually.<BR>
<BR>
After 1109 Terra's newly-established government includes a delegation from<BR>
the District of Nepal. I don't claim that it is conclusive, but I think that<BR>
is pretty damn good evidence that the old nation-states of the 21st Century<BR>
still survive, in a somewhat different form, in 1120.<BR>
<BR>
BTW. I don't have _Invasion:Earth_. Is there no evidence that bears on this<BR>
question to be gleaned there?<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
- - "You don't like the Goths?"<BR>
- -  "No! Not with the persecution we have to put up with!"<BR>
- -  "Persecution?"<BR>
- -  "Religious persecution. We wont stand for it forever."<BR>
- -  "I thought the Goths let everybody worship as they pleased."<BR>
- -  "That's  just  it!  We Orthodox are forced to stand around and<BR>
   watch Arians  and Monophysites  and Nestorians  and Jews going<BR>
   about  their  business  unmolested,   as  if  they  owned  the<BR>
   country. If that isn't persecution, I'd like to know what is!"<BR>
<BR>
                -Martin Padway and stranger in bar in<BR>
                         "Lest Darkness Fall"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 06:31:03 EST<BR>
From: KenRoney@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Far Future Terra<BR>
<BR>
As a former geology major I feel pretty confident to say that barring major <BR>
shifts in the sea level, continental boundaries would not change to any <BR>
noticeable degree by IM 1100.  Although earthquakes, eruptions, etc are <BR>
impressive events locally, the geological processes that result take hundreds <BR>
of thousands, if not millions of years to create major differences.  A lot of <BR>
geology texts have projections of what the world will look like in tens of <BR>
million of years, there are differences, but its still recognizable as Terra. <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 11:54:53 GMT<BR>
From: "i Steve" <isteve1967@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller roadshows<BR>
<BR>
> >>Really? Where in the north? I'm in Lancashire, near Rochdale.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Doncaster mate, the right side of the Pennines  *grin*<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Leeds here,<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Starting to sound like we have a Brit Pack - so what are the chances of <BR>
getting together and doing some Trav at some stage?  What are you guys <BR>
playing at the moment?<BR>
<BR>
iSteve<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 00:58:20 +1300<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: FW: moderator: America, as seen by a Canadian<BR>
<BR>
Date sent:      	Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:48:11 +0000<BR>
From:           	SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
<BR>
> At 1:07 -0500 22/12/99, "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >Why do all the International Airlines except Russia fly American planes?<BR>
<BR>
> Because the UK manufacturers collapsed out of the international <BR>
> market as it transitioned to jets when the DH Comet accidents <BR>
> happened, and it took 30 years for a credible alternative to be <BR>
> developed (in this case Airbus Industrie). As a result, there are <BR>
> really only two major civil passenger aircraft manufacturers now, <BR>
> Boeing and Airbus.<BR>
<BR>
Not quite, the BAe 111 was a major commercial success in the 60s<BR>
and looked like continuing until the British government pulled the rug<BR>
out from under its feet (the actively suggested that potential customers<BR>
not buy it!). One can but wonder at the sanity of governments at times.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Andrew etc<BR>
Homepage http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/<BR>
Traveller http://www.downport.com/amv/<BR>
 "What do you expect from a species who's females are<BR>
 always in heat" Ko of the Ilui clan on Humans and honour<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:01:20 +0100 (MET)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Ethnic confusion<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman writes:<BR>
<BR>
>>All told...has it been specifically stated that ALL human races in the OTU<BR>
>>can interbreed with each other...Solomani, Vilani, Zhodani, and all the<BR>
>>rest?<BR>
> <BR>
>We know that Solomani and Vilani can interbreed, assuming you accept DGP<BR>
>materials; The vilani purity table was a dead giveaway. We know that there<BR>
>are individuals of Mixed solomani ancestry (AM Solomani, GDW). We know that<BR>
>you can tell zhodani purebreed and solomani purebreed apart by counting<BR>
>teeth. Since we never saw an AM Vilani from GDW, their details are a little<BR>
>fuzzier.<BR>
> <BR>
>Darrians are a human minor race, too. Even if they do show some 40-50<BR>
>thousand years adaptations (or more). We know that they can interbreed, but<BR>
>we are not shown (in AM 8, nor elsewhere I have seen) 2nd generation hybrids.<BR>
<BR>
But we are told that present-day Darrians have genes deribved from the<BR>
Solomani immigrants, so it's a pretty safe bet that Solomani-Darrian hybrids<BR>
are able to pass on their genes.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
And Jon Zeigler writes:<BR>
<BR>
>In a message dated 12/18/99 6:43:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>
>macmanjws@earthlink.net writes:<BR>
> <BR>
>>All told...has it been specifically stated that ALL human races in the OTU<BR>
>>can interbreed with each other...Solomani, Vilani, Zhodani, and all the<BR>
>>rest?<BR>
> <BR>
>I've never been able to find such a statement.  <BR>
<BR>
Ahem. Jon, don't you have a copy of _Alien Module 6, Solomani_? Page 3:<BR>
<BR>
"About 300,000 years ago [...] the Ancients landed on Terra and gathered<BR>
samples of _Homo sapiens_, carrying them off to their settlements among<BR>
the stars. When the Ancients' civilization collapsed and destroyed itself<BR>
in a star-spanning war, some of the humans they had with them survived, <BR>
with each adapting itself to the world it was stranded on, and becoming a<BR>
new and distinct SUBspecies [emphasis mine] of _homo sapiens_. There are<BR>
currently forty-six known and identified human SUBspecies within explored <BR>
human space."<BR>
<BR>
This follows an explanation of Terran taxonomy which sets out the difference<BR>
between species and subspecies, so I think that is pretty conclusive.<BR>
<BR>
>FWIW, I've got something in the draft Solomani Rim book that says that all<BR>
>known human races can interbreed -- although sometimes it's with difficulty<BR>
>or it requires medical intervention.<BR>
><BR>
>(Of course, the canonical material on the Zhodani *does* use a different<BR>
>taxonomy for them than for, say, Solomani. . .)<BR>
 <BR>
If you're referring to GT:AR1, it also claims that the original humans on<BR>
Zhdant evolved into two groups: _Homo zhdatl_ (Learning Man) and _Homo <BR>
vlastebr_ (Superior Man). In other words, going by the taxonomic names,<BR>
they evolved into two distinct species. Then it states that those two<BR>
gruops mingled and created the hybrid _Homo zhodotlas_ (Supreme Man).<BR>
<BR>
Obviously, for Learning Man and Superior Man to be able to mingle and<BR>
create Supreme Man, they have to belong to the same species. Maybe not<BR>
_Homo sapiens_, but certainly _Homo <something>_. And if they have to<BR>
be _Home <something> zhdatl_ and _Homo <something> vlastebr_ why NOT<BR>
_Homo sapiens zhdatl_ and _Homo sapiens vlastebr_?<BR>
<BR>
Especially since _Contact: Zhodani_ in JTAS9 states that (p. 8):<BR>
<BR>
"The Zhodani are a discrete, though interfertile sub-species of Homo<BR>
sapiens..."<BR>
<BR>
It's quite possible that the Zhodani CLAIM that they are a different<BR>
(and, of course, superior) species, but if they do, they are talking<BR>
through their collective hats (or turbans as the case may be).<BR>
<BR>
Another possibility is that ALL surviving human races are interfertile<BR>
(and thus subspecies of _Homo sapiens_) and that consequently the 'sapiens'<BR>
part is usually left out as being redundant. I don't like that much,<BR>
because I think that goes to far in the opposite direction. A few races<BR>
that has evolved (or been genetically altered by an Ancient) to the point<BR>
where it is now a distinct species seems very likely. But apparently that<BR>
is not the case...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 23:07:13 +1100<BR>
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Far Fututre Terra<BR>
<BR>
On 21/12/99, Mark Cook sayeth :<BR>
<BR>
>> > Aren't the Himmalayas still rising?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Possibly. After all, India is still trying to ram Asia.<BR>
><BR>
>Right again.  As the Indian Plate moves northeast, it piles up on top<BR>
>of the much larger Eurasia Plate and the Himalayas are the result.<BR>
><BR>
>If anyone is interested, there's a *seriously* cool Java animation<BR>
>called "Deconstructing Pangaea..." at the URL:<BR>
<BR>
Indo-Australian Plate (which may be splitting at a point under the Indian<BR>
Ocean) is rammming up against the Eurasian Plate.  Due to the fact that<BR>
we're looking at two lots of continental crust (as opposed to oceanic<BR>
crust) going head-to-head, and they're roughly the same denisty, it's sort<BR>
of forcing material to thrust up as the two plates buckle.  As far as I<BR>
understand it, nothings really subducting as such.<BR>
<BR>
Dave<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 23:07:25 +1100<BR>
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: (OT) Mental Health in Australia<BR>
<BR>
On 20/12/99, Rob Prior said :<BR>
<BR>
<<Snippage>><BR>
<BR>
>I rather liked their solution, too. Stop giving professional sports teams<BR>
>tax money, and instead spend it on community health care.  They'd added up<BR>
>the money given to professional sports teams, and figured that less than<BR>
>half of that total would be enough to provide good community care.<BR>
><BR>
>Tenuous ObTrav: IMTU, professional sports teams get no government money.<BR>
>They are either supported by gate receipts, or noble patronage.<BR>
<BR>
Professional sports teams get government MONEY ?????  With *their* salary<BR>
cap ???  No wonder there's no money for welfare.  There's barely any money<BR>
for amateur sports here, let alone the professionals.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU, there are *no* professional sports that get government patronage.<BR>
They have other ways of obtaining income; merchandise, gate-takings,<BR>
commercial and noble sponsorship, entertainment (TriD, radio, et al)<BR>
rights, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Dave<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 23:07:41 +1100<BR>
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Terra and the US in IY 1110 (was various)<BR>
<BR>
On 22/12/99, Darryl Adams said :<BR>
<BR>
>Sydney alsmost qualifies for a megacity now, except for the population.<BR>
><BR>
>With 3 major satalite cities (Newcastle, Wollongong and<BR>
Cambelltown/Macarthur) ,<BR>
>the Greater Sydney Metro area is the same size as London. Again though, the<BR>
>population density is far smaller.<BR>
><BR>
>Given the population density of NSW and Victoria on the coast, I forsee a<BR>
>megacity encompasing Sydney and Canberra, streaching down to the Victoria<BR>
border<BR>
>(possably meeting Melbourne).<BR>
<BR>
Nah.  Far more likely we'll expand north and take over your sorry-ass<BR>
excuse for a city.  8-D<BR>
<BR>
Actually, it's more likely that Surfers will expand south and we'll all<BR>
acquire, a) the desire to spend the time searching for the ultimate wave,<BR>
and b) New Zealand accents.<BR>
<BR>
Dave<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 23:07:54 +1100<BR>
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: The origins of Football<BR>
<BR>
On 22/12/99, Jim Lawrie said :<BR>
<BR>
>    Urrggh [Insert Snort-of-Disgust sound effect], not Aussie Rules (or<BR>
>Aerial Ping-Pong) but real Footie! The game where the mighty Aussies<BR>
>regularly thrash the Mother Countries lacklustre efforts.<BR>
<BR>
If yer talkin' Union, then yup.  If yer talkin' that lacklustre excuse for<BR>
a sport north of the Murray, then how can you call it *foot*ball ?  There's<BR>
less contact with the foot than there is Victorian Rules Football.  If yer<BR>
talkin' soccer, then I think the last time we beat the Poms was when they<BR>
failed to show up.  Even then, it could have gone either way.<BR>
<BR>
Dave<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 03:55:39 -0900<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re:  Racial depictions<BR>
<BR>
 GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
 <BR>
> Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> types:<BR>
> >it occurs to me that just about every pic I've seen of either of these groups<BR>
> >[Zhodani and Vilani races] portrays a white person.<BR>
<BR>
> Part of it has to do with the nature of printing. Aside from the covers, <BR>
> which are in color, most artwork in Traveller is lineart. Black on white. <BR>
> This means that the subtle differences in skintone of, say, the UV-starved <BR>
> Zhodani (their star is K0-V) or the even more UV-starved Vilani (though see <BR>
> below) require great subtlety of technique. For lineart, olive-skinned (the <BR>
> Zhodani) or pasty (the Vilani, IMHO) is all "white."<BR>
<BR>
>  Looking up the luminosities of these two stars shows why these particular <BR>
> races are "white". Pliebr has a luminosity of 0.42 (Sol = 1.0), while Vlands <BR>
> main star is actually a bit of a mystery. The sector listings for Vland list <BR>
> a K8-V (lumin. = 0.06!), while the text from V&V mentions a "hot, F-type <BR>
> star" of luminosity 1.21. Both citations are from V&V, by the way, so it <BR>
> seems that the DGP holdings just got a little less valuable...<BR>
<BR>
The thing about Vilani is that they are _specifically_ mentioned in text<BR>
in Vilani & Vargr as being dark skinned. The V&V text on the planet<BR>
Vland mentions the type F star as well. Therefore the logical conclusion<BR>
[IMNSHO] is that the sector data is in error.<BR>
<BR>
"OK, class, lets get out our copies of V&V & fix<BR>
the errors in the sector data now. Yes it's OK to<BR>
write in the books Bobby but next time please raise<BR>
your hand before asking a question. Cross out K8 and<BR>
write in F8."<BR>
<BR>
[In GURPS Traveller Loren (or someone) says that Vilani <BR>
come in various colors, IMTU they range from light brown<BR>
to dark brown.]<BR>
<BR>
Since most Solomani are not white and Vilani are<BR>
a color that would be described by most late 20th<BR>
century Americans as "black" and (most) Imperial's<BR>
are a blending of the two then _obviously_ most<BR>
Imperials are not white. Even most characters defined <BR>
as being 100% Solomani will be dark skinned. Being<BR>
light skinned tends to be a recessive trait.<BR>
<BR>
[I was playing Traveller once with a Solomani character,<BR>
Sigrid Ottawa and I had a picture of her on the back<BR>
of the character sheet [snipped from a clothing <BR>
catalog]. When a new player, Chris, joined the group<BR>
his character & my character ended up being trapped<BR>
together away from the rest of the party [the GM put<BR>
us out in the hall] our characters ended up talking.<BR>
Chris described his character to me & I showed him<BR>
the picture of Sigrid. Chris, who is African American,<BR>
was a little surprised that my charecter was "black".<BR>
When I explained why she was dark skinned he agreed<BR>
that this was made sense. IIRC his character, Anders,<BR>
was "white".<BR>
<BR>
IMTU parts of the Imperium noted for having largely<BR>
Solomani populations may run as much as 5% "white"<BR>
(with most of them looking southern European); but<BR>
most of the Imperium is less than 1% white. These <BR>
figures do not, of course, count minor human<BR>
races, who come in all sorts of colors, but discuss<BR>
only "regular", Solomani-Vilani blend Imperials. <BR>
<BR>
[Warning Keyboard Alert]<BR>
It just occurred to me that Solomani- Vilani blend sounds <BR>
like a brand of coffee beans.<BR>
<BR>
"Here Bob, try some of my new Folgers Imperial Coffee."<BR>
<BR>
"Wow Martha this coffee is so rich and tasty, how does<BR>
Folgers do it?"<BR>
<BR>
"Well Bob the secret is in the beans. Folgers uses only<BR>
the finest blend of Solomani and Vilani beans. Then they<BR>
are fresh roasted to seal in the flavor. You can always<BR>
be sure that your Folgers coffee is fresh because each can <BR>
is shipped in it's own special low berth to lock in the <BR>
flavor."<BR>
<BR>
[Voice over, preferably by Joe DiMagio] <BR>
"Imperial coffee, where the great taste, starts with the<BR>
beans."<BR>
<BR>
RE: Adaptation to dim stars by lightening of skin tones:<BR>
Yes this makes perfect sense for minor human races, but<BR>
unless their planet has been at low tech levels (no <BR>
vitamin pills) then being white is not really an advantage.<BR>
Light skin is a trait that is useful when it is too cold<BR>
to expose much skin to the light, the sun is not too<BR>
bright anyway, and you need to make sure you get enough vitamin <BR>
D. [Assuming Grandfather did not fix your race so they<BR>
know longer needed vitamin D.]<BR>
<BR>
[Scenario - A Vilani scout ship crash lands in Alabama,<BR>
[or Roswell, NM perhaps] circa 1950's AD, its crew has <BR>
to try & blend in long enough to try & get spare parts....<BR>
Ob: X-Files - Obviously the General in Roswell was<BR>
from the South and held the racial attitudes that<BR>
were prevalent at the time. This is part of the reason<BR>
why the Roswell incident was suppress.]<BR>
<BR>
Obviously all Traveller product illustrations were<BR>
posed for by professional models. Since "exotic looking" <BR>
models tend to do a little better in attracting attention many<BR>
models in the Third Imperium are "white" despite this<BR>
being  very atypical of the population as a whole.<BR>
If blondes and redheads are very scarce, they may come<BR>
to be considered "exotic" and attractive.<BR>
Ob20th century - Japan.<BR>
<BR>
Note for evil referee's:<BR>
[Evil referee's isn't that like jumbo shrimp, or military <BR>
intelligence.]<BR>
<BR>
Don't tell the player's that most Imperials are "black".<BR>
Make the players describe their charecters looks on<BR>
the back of their charecter sheets. Include a line for <BR>
skin tone. Almost all Caucasian players will play "white"<BR>
characters. Then simply wait for players to be players and<BR>
commit some dastardly crime. Then have the police pick<BR>
them up in very short order thanks to the party members<BR>
distinctive (i.e. all white) appearance...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1550<BR>
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